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 Trip suggestions for first winter summit 
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Sovereign Woodsman
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 Re: Trip suggestions for first winter summit
BrianL wrote:
The jaded wisdom that comes from years of experience just isn't as valuable any more.

jad·ed /ˈjādəd/ adjective: tired, bored, or lacking enthusiasm

wis·dom /ˈwizdəm/ noun: the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment; the quality of being wise.

Your comment makes absolutely NO sense. What's your beef dude? If, as it seems, you think we're a group of jaded-no-value hikers then just stop checking in here and move on.


BrianL wrote:
And I'm not just picking on you guys

Oh. Goody.

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Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:31 pm
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 Re: Trip suggestions for first winter summit
BrianL wrote:
Not sure why you always wanna start a beef with me man, but here we go....

I'm not starting a beef with you. You coming on here and calling everyone a shill and dismissing the advice of how did you put it, oh yeah, "experienced jaded, grizzly, seasoned mountaineers " might have something to do with the responses you draw and where things start. But somehow I think that's exactly what you're after. I don't think you could say half the stuff you have here or in other threads with a straight face. Trolling and antagonizing seem to be your game, so I'll humor you for a bit if you want.

Granite Guy wrote:
Says the guy who hasn't hiked in winter, or apparently on many other trails if you think Tecumseh is as steep and rugged as pretty much anything else out there. You have said you have all the gear but didn't use it on your one "wintery" hike last fall and thought you wouldn't go again until the spring unless you could cherry pick your days.


Yeah, it's recreation, which means it's supposed to be fun. If you like looking at fog and getting rained on, have a blast, but it's not my thing. You'll see earlier in this thread that I suggested to the OP that he have a non-hiking back up plan and not force himself into a crappy time just in the name of "list-completion".

Rain and fog? Pretty sure you bagged out at just the thought of old man winter. I don't see rain or fog listed here as the reasons you'd likely be a fair weather hiker in winter if anything at all in the following...

BrianL wrote:
Wait...what? "taste of winter"? "go where it's winter"? Are you guys saying that the conditions experienced by IQuest are typical of winter hiking?

I have a bunch of pictures similar to IQuest from last sunday in the Presidentials. I went Up Crawford to Pierce, across to Eisenhower, and down Edmands. It was an unusually warm december day with sunshine and clear skies.

I did not use any traction, and never even considered it. At no point was I even close to cold. My pack did not feel heavy or burdensome, even though I carried tons of jackets, extra clothing, and food that I never even touched. I started at 9am and finished with ample daylight remaining. Snow wasn't deep at all. In some places it filled in between the rocks and made trekking feel even easier than normal. Snow was actually just deep enough to provide some "cushion" to my steps which allowed me to travel at a faster pace than any of my previous 4K hikes (only done 8 so far, so small sample size).

Is that typical of winter hiking? I was under the impression that it's a fierce challenge against hypothermia, and a series of annoying battles to keep water in liquid form. I had told myself that last sunday was a fluke weather-wise and it would definitely be my last outing until spring. I have no interest in fighting extreme conditions, but if I cherry-pick my days, will I get some opportunities like my trip last Sunday?

Winter hiking, how hard is it, really?


And why are you even asking for our advice based on our worthless experience and what we thought we knew and had learned until you set us all straight?

Granite Guy wrote:
Well, if you have the gear and one trail is as good as the next grab your stuff, head for Lions Head or Howker Ridge or the Falling Waters/OBP loop and get back to us with a report


Challenge accepted. But only if its sunny.


I'm sure you can do it with just your snowshoes, or maybe spikes, but the latest trip reports state they used crampons. I know they are not you, and you know more than them because they are jaded and grizzly and you are a bright eyed young buck full of beans, but just thought you might want to know. But Tecumsehs trip reports say they only needed spikes or boots even, so I'm sure you'll be fine, because trails don't get much steeper or rougher than that one.
:roll:

Granite Guy wrote:
Don't worry if you know how your gear will work, or clothing in dangerously cold conditions, or how you will do when you hit significant ice floes or icy scrambles and ledges, or boilerplate from the freezing and thawing we may get with these warm temps... Just do it!


I repeat, challenge accepted. Why would I worry if I know how my gear works? I've been cold before. I know how a jacket works bro. If my socks get wet, I'll change into a dry pair. Honestly man, this isn't Everest. And significant ice is something I've seen on hikes for months now, so I'm not sure what I would be worried about. Ice is slippery at sea level too you know.

I don't even know what to say to that. if your socks get wet your 3 season boots will probably be wet too, which will be a lot bigger problem in winter than changing your socks, but you knew that already I'm guessing. You've been cold. You live in southern NH, and they don't say southern NH has the worlds worst weather for nothing bro. And you've been hiking on ice for months? Or just gazing at it in others trip reports? Because you didn't even have traction two months ago...

BrianL wrote:
I've only recently become interested in hiking, and have just barely dug in to my 4000 footers quest. I have everything I need to stay warm, hydrated, fed, found etc. The only gear I'm really missing for a late fall/winter hike is traction.

I'm hoping to do some <10 mile 4000 footer hikes next weekend (Nov 21), and on Thanksgiving day (following thursday). Potential destinations include Cannon, Hale, Jackson, Jefferson, or Pierce.

How likely is it that i will need microspikes, crampons, or snowshoes to complete any of those hikes on those dates?




Granite Guy wrote:
You also said you were concerned which of the Uncanoonucs mighty be too tough for little inexperienced legs in nice weather, but no concern for which hikes might be best to get into winter hiking in more extreme conditions? Seems, oh I don't know, reckless. :wink:


Your talking about a question I posted in regards to challenging the hiking abilities of a four year old girl. And you're comparing that to advice I'm giving a fully grown man who is confident enough to winter hike on his own. Seems, oh I don't know, troll-y

Also, digging through the archives to discredit me with a post that you KNOW is irrelevant.....double troll-y, and with a hint of creepy stalker-ness.

Just using your own words to prove you are full of it. Call it what you want.

Granite Guy wrote:
But really, why be concerned with inexperience and what is best for the kids or anyone else, just take em straight to the west ridge trail on Cardigan and scramble them up the 500 feet of exposed ridge to start things off.


Why not? My 6 year old ascended the White Cross Trail on Monadnock as her second hike ever. 1000ft/mile is no joke in my book. She conquered it without hiking Tecumseh first.

You tell me why not. Why were you at all concerned with any trails on the Uncs being too hard for the inexperience of the little legs. Inexperience is a good thing right? not jaded? Not grizzled? Why as for advice on that one from people who may have done it before.

Granite Guy wrote:
I don't disagree that a bigger payoff if it requires no more experience or skill is the way to go,


So we're agreed right? Tecumseh is the worst idea ever.

Far from the worst ever. But you've hiked enough of them (8 is it?? ) to know that a full 35 of them are better than Tecumseh, even though you have only visited 8? It is 8 right?

Granite Guy wrote:
but walking in snowshoes is different than bare boots.


Eh, kinda. I admit I don't have many miles on my shoes yet, but I've been dabbling, and it seems like the net effect of snowshoes is LESS difficulty. Sure you're stance and stride are different, and that challenges different muscle groups, but that soreness won't be apparent until the following day. In the meantime, the OP would just be saving tons of time and energy by not post-holing all the way up the hill. And like I said, winter happens at sea level too. The OP could easily find a field near his home and practice walking in snow shoes. He doesn't need to dedicate a day to Tecumseh to learn that his ankles need to be two inches further apart.

Well I'm sorry you havent had time in the last couple months to get out on any 4K's in winter. Life does tend to get in the way sometimes. I'm sure if you had time you would have been there, and not dabbling on smaller stuff, since you have no need to get a feel for your gear or how it works, functions, feels etc

Granite Guy wrote:
Even getting up the last ledges of Jackson when they are covered in ice can be tough and much easier with experience. Using or even walking in crampons and using an ice axe properly if it comes to that is a learned skill.


When you say "crampons", I assume you're talking about either Kathtoola Microspikes, Hillsound Trail Crampons, or some off brand equivalent, since that seems to be what 99.999% of folks hiking the whites use on a regular basis. Again, it's not that big of a deal. The spikes sink in the snow, and your foot doesn't slip. Voila! I really don't see tons of difference between wearing hillsounds in snow, and wearing cleats when I was playing little league at age 9.

Nope. If you knew anything about winter hiking you'd know using crampons (which many more than .0001% do in certain situation) is an aquired skill, as is the ice axe when it comes to that. If I meant spikes, id say spikes, which basically requires one to learn to pick up their feet another half inch.

Granite Guy wrote:
All trails are not created equal and maybe more importantly conditions are always changing, and asking for advice isn't a bad thing for new winter hikers, other than trial and error it's the best way to learn and plan. You don't always set out to challenge winter, but getting up is easier than getting down. Sometimes winter and conditions sneak up on the best among us. If all you are prepared for and comfortable in is a dog packed snow trail in 40 degree temps winter hiking is definitely not for you.


Agreed, the OP asked for advice, and I gave mine. But this whole paragraph seems irrelevant and generic. Unless you mean that winter conditions WON'T sneak up on you on Tecumseh, but might be a problem other places. Is that what you mean? I really doubt that's what you mean.

No, I think it's pretty clear I meant ground/weather conditions change fast in winter. Hike up Lafayette or Washington in the 40 degree sunshine and the slope softens right up. You can spike it or even bare boot it sometimes. When the shadows hit it after a warm day and it re-freezes if you don't have traction and a comfort level using it good luck. Again I am sure I'm not telling you anything you don't know.

And I dont know what "dog-packed" means, but I do admit that I prefer fair weather, and non-horrendous trail conditions. That doesn't mean I don't prepare for worse. Still don't know how any of this relates to the OP though.


I don't know what it means either. Auto correct, like humans, can give some dumb advice/corrections sometimes.

BrianL wrote:
On the contrary Gibba, I believe my advice is extra-relevant since I'm in virtually the exact same place as the OP in terms of hiking experience. I feel like as a comparable hiker, I'm uniquely qualified to comment on what would be an epic boring waste of time, and what would be an entertaining challenge. You and GG have been there, done that, and seen it all, so how could your opinion ever be relevant?

You and GG have a distorted view from being so "experienced". You guys have probably done this so much that it probably FEELS like you learned alot over that time. But I suspect that you're just like anyone else and learned 96% of your hiking skills when you were 1 years old and put one foot in front of the of the other for the first time.

The rest of the blanks can be filled in with a simple google search on "winter hiking". It's 2016 and information is everywhere. The jaded wisdom that comes from years of experience just isn't as valuable any more.

And I'm not just picking on you guys. I'll bet if you gave me an hour I could scour the web and find a dozen posts or trip reports from some wanna be mountaineer who thinks he's a hero cause he hiked up washington, but then posts a resentful rant about all the droolers on top wearing flip flops who drove there in their cars. GET OVER YOURSELF!

I mean, what is that "tale of the tape" supposed to even prove Gibba? I see the trickeration you're trying to illustrate, but I got news for you. Most third graders today can do division. Elementary math easily shows which trail is steeper. And even infantile common sense tells you that steeper = harder. This is what I'm talking about. You THINK you have these hyper-developed skills that can only be gained through years of experience. But you don't. You walk uphill. Sometimes its a long trip, so bring a sandwich. Sheesh, easy game.

As long as you are fit enough, and you dress warmly, hydrate, and stay dry, then pretty much anyone should be able to handle ten miles, anywhere in NH.

This entire thing is so foolish I almost didn't feel like replying to it because anyone who reads it knows it's wrong and you're just trolling, but again I'll play along for a minute. Your advice is "extra relevant" because you have no winter experience?! :lol: You are actually basing everything you said off your one semi-wintery experience, which is just worthless experience really. It's the unexperienced who give the best advice. The only reason I even felt the need to respond in the first place is if by some chance anyone is dumb enough to take your advice on winter hiking they might just get themselves injured or killed. You are welcome to do so (and send the rest of us the bill) but the OP wasn't asking for advice on how to have an epic first winter hike I don't believe. Anyone can answer that and say "go big!!" but most people with that worthless experience you speak of know that's not an intelligent plan. Do something more than the most boring of 4K's like South Carter, Waumbek or Hale?? Sure I'm with you there, I said that in my original response, but to tell someone they already know 96% of what they will need for an epic full on winter hike because they can walk uphill and have bought spikes?? Bad advice bro.


Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:36 pm
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 Re: Trip suggestions for first winter summit
ad·vice
ədˈvīs/Submit
noun
guidance or recommendations concerning prudent future action, typically given by someone regarded as knowledgeable or authoritative.


au·thor·i·ta·tive
əˈTHôrəˌtādiv/
adjective
1.
able to be trusted as being accurate or true; reliable.

re·li·a·ble
rəˈlīəb(ə)l/
adjective
1.
consistently good in quality or performance; able to be trusted.

con·sist·ent
kənˈsistənt/Submit
adjective
(of a person, behavior, or process) unchanging in achievement or effect over a period of time

Granted I haven't written the book an anything. Anyone else but you that has apparently posted exudes more of the above qualities than you. What is another 400 feet or so across 7/8ths of a mile? On most trails nothing much. On the two trails i Illustrated. there is a marked difference. I'd love to see you just dress warmly and hit up the Huntington Ravine trail with some microspikes. When we mean "crampons" we mean crampons.

One trail is an easy jaunt in the woods the other is a technical climbing course. I'm pretty much done here. You are a troll looking for attention. Your arguments here have no merit as you are over your head.

Image


Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:52 pm
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 Re: Trip suggestions for first winter summit
thegibba wrote:
Image



HA HA HA HA HA HA. :lol:

So, are we the hike-nh regulars calling for a boycott and refraining from commenting? All in favor, say aye.

AYE

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Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:57 pm
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 Re: Trip suggestions for first winter summit
Kathy wrote:
thegibba wrote:
Image



HA HA HA HA HA HA. :lol:

So, are we the hike-nh regulars calling for a boycott and refraining from commenting? All in favor, say aye.

AYE


Second. Motion passed!


Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:02 pm
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 Re: Trip suggestions for first winter summit
Don't feed trolls. Period.


Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:49 pm
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 Re: Trip suggestions for first winter summit
Kevin Rooney wrote:
Don't feed trolls. Period.



Usually I'd follow this advice. But it's nice to curb stomp them from time to time.


Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:08 pm
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 Re: Trip suggestions for first winter summit
I think post #26, by GG, is where this thread went troll-y. Up until then, my point was only that Tecumseh is a terrible suggestion. I admit I haven't 100% redlined yet, but I've been to Tecumseh, and I've been to other places that are also on the list that are way better. Even from my limited catalog of experience, Tecumseh would be the worst possible suggestion.

I dare anyone reading this to make a convincing case for Tecumseh being a better "proving ground" for winter hiking than Jackson, Pierce, or others that have been suggested. What makes it so suitable? You can't tell me that the Crawford Path is going to be significantly more dangerous than the Mt Tecumseh trail on January 30th, 2016. Yet, Tecumseh won the vote in a landslide. How is that possible?

It's because some folks here think they need to treat the OP like a baby. Gibba proves that point brilliantly with his Huntington Ravine Paradox. You really need years of hiking in the wilderness to know that steepness is a factor in a trail's difficulty? You have to be a hardened mountaineer to know that steepness is a function of distance and elevation? That's absurd. Just because I haven't scaled a cliff of ice doesn't mean I can't read a map and do math.

And that's my point. When you folks suggest tecumseh not because its a great experience, not because it has fantastic views, not because it's a rare gem of the wilderness, but because of some delusion among the forum regulars here that they are in some higher class of hikers and the noobs belong on the kiddie slopes.

GG - you turned this whole discussion into something person with post #26, so if anyone should be blamed for the de-rail it's you. And your entire attitude is further evidence of the condescension that exists here. I'm not going to red-font you but it's pretty obvious that you enjoy making bold assumptions with no knowledge of what you're even talking about. You said something about 3 season boots, as if I don't know that I should wear winter boots in winter. Seriously? You keep talking about crampons as if they are even a factor here. The OP listed his equipment and he doesn't have them. So going to Tecumseh to practice his crampon technique would be pretty god damn stupid. Maybe you should go read the entirety of the traction thread from November that you quoted and see the part where the advice given was "hillsounds and snowshoes will cover 99%". You seem to be mentioning crampons just to squeeze in some kind of brag that you know how to use them. Who cares?

Your condescension is on full display in your ignorant and completely baseless assumptions about my winter hiking experience. You know, GG, just because I don't post a picture of every tree I walk by doesn't mean I'm not out on the trails. Funny, you accuse ME of seeking attention, but is there a thread anywhere on this site where you haven't had something to say? How many times have you posted a link to one of YOUR trip reports as a response to someone else's?

After making the previously quoted traction thread, I went up Cannon in late November. It was plenty icy. And I'm pretty sure that ice is just as slippery in January as it is in November. After that, I went up Jackson and Webster. Snow and ice everywhere. Temps in the teens and 20's. Sure felt like winter. I did Pierce and Eisenhower on Dec 6th, and I don't think anyone would call the weather "fall". As you know I hiked the uncanoonucs with the kids, but hiked there again myself after a snowstorm on New Year's day. I made a figure 8 over both and followed that up with a stroll around the Pulpit Rock area. Additionally I went up Mt Pemigewasset two weekends ago with snow on teh ground and temps in the teens. The Unc's and Mt Pemi were only chosen because of time constraints, otherwise I would have been eager and ready to do a 4k. I'm a guy who can get things done, but I'm afraid I can't control what time the sun sets. Wait......how did I know I shouldn't hike in the dark in unfamiliar areas?. I didn't get that instruction from an experienced woodsman. I guess it was just a lucky instinct hmm?

My point, GraniteGuy, is that your assumptions about my having zero winter exposure are WAY off, and the product of your own condescending elitist attitude that you are some master mountaineer and that everyone else needs to earn the privilege of hiking in the same places that you hike.. I think I have enough of a resume to make a better suggestion than Tecumseh for next Saturday. In fact, I'm making the EXACT SAME DECISION as the OP for making my own weekend plans. That's why I feel that my opinion is uniquely valuable. No one except the OP and I can claim to have put more thought into the question "which 4k would be an ideal site for my initial winter summit on 1/30/16.

All indications are that the OP is fit and prepared. There is no reason to treat him like a blind hemophiliac with a calcium deficiency and low blood sugar. The only argument for Tecumseh seems to be safety, and I'm having a really hard time seeing why Tecumseh is SOOOOO much safer than at least a dozen other options. I mean, Cannon offers heated buildings at the summit after a mere 2 miles, and an option for a motorized ride down in an emergency. It's also got ten times better views and is closer to the highway. But no....that's a "big boy" hike, and the OP hasn't 'made his bones' yet right?


Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:54 pm
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 Re: Trip suggestions for first winter summit
You can't control what time the sun sets? Noob!


Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:30 pm
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 Re: Trip suggestions for first winter summit
Aye yai yai!


Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:41 pm
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 Re: Trip suggestions for first winter summit
Grindboy wrote:
Probably not a lot more to say that hasn't been said.



It's one thing to quote yourself after the fact to say "see, I told you so!" But I'm man enough to be here and say "Wow, you sure proved me wrong here."


Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:14 pm
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 Re: Trip suggestions for first winter summit
I'm definitely not responding, just pasting random definitions.

in·fe·ri·or·i·ty com·plex
noun
an unrealistic feeling of general inadequacy caused by actual or supposed inferiority in one sphere, sometimes marked by aggressive behavior in compensation.

rea·ding com·pre·hen·sion
the ability to read text, process it and understand its meaning. An individual's ability to comprehend text is influenced by their traits and skills, one of which is the ability to make inferences.

Another non-response in relation to the last definition. The rest of that gibberish means nothing to me and isn't worth my time, but I'll be damned if Tecumseh is going to be pinned on me. I hate Tecumseh. I have never once in my life suggested anyone hike it, first, last or otherwise. I don't even like what the NH48 has become for that matter and rarely hike any of them unless it's for red-lining or to accompany someone else on a hike for their list.

Granite Guy wrote:
You won't hear me saying Tecumseh is a good choice in winter, or any season for that matter. If someone took a stick of dynamite and removed 4 feet from the top everyone who has to do the AMC list should send them a thank you note! :D Either that or close down the trail from the ski side. I hear the other is much nicer and will find out myself eventually.

Personally winter is the only time hiking most of the eastern mountains can actually feel like climbing a mountain and not just walking up a hill. Needing to use some/all the gear I have collected is part of what makes winter hiking exciting and different for me. If I come home from a hike and say I could have done it in bare boots I probably didn't enjoy it very much. Picking a trail that could let you start to get a feel for all that gear, be it snowshoes, spikes, crampons whatever would be a good idea IMO. Not necessarily head up Lions Head right away, but not the easiest trail possible either


If someones reading comprehension was better they'd realize I was the only one here in almost full agreement with them to begin with. :roll: Now, carry on with the tirades and attempt to be manly and compensate for whatever it is the complex derives from...


Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:54 pm
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 Re: Trip suggestions for first winter summit
Thank you to everyone for their advice. I truly do appreciate it.

I'll post pictures with a report when I get home on Saturday. According to mountains-forecast.com, it could get a little dicey in the afternoon, so I may start out early up Pierce or Liberty, and see if I have the time and the legs/gear to make it over to Jackson and Flume, respectively.

Best,


Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:33 am
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 Re: Trip suggestions for first winter summit
I'm just gonna throw this out there:

I hike in the winter with more gear than I hope I'll ever need, but I know if I get injured out in the wilderness, I can survive overnight. It's not as easy as you think. Get all bundled up, then lie down in the snow and see how long you can stay there. If I pop a knee or break a leg (which is more likely in winter) I have everything I need to fix it or hunker down in the woods overnight. These days, you have to, otherwise you're considered negligent and get fined out the ass by SNR. Before I started hiking 4Ks in winter, I did the AMC's workshop on advanced winter hiking, and learned way more than I expected. Since then, I've used every piece of my emergency gear... but to help others who were absolutely not prepared for what they were doing.

I think winter hiking is much easier. No roots, no rocks, and in most cases you have a nice stamped-down path to simply walk up to the summit. If you have the right gear, it's alot of fun, and like BrianL said, it really is a no brainer. BUT, you have to be smart and be prepared in order for it to be a no brainer. You can't be flippant about it, and you really need to be cognizant of the increased propensity for injury, and be prepared for it.

That said, if you're new to winter hiking but you're prepared, confident yet cautious, and are willing to turn back when you encounter something you aren't comfy with... then by all means, proceed. If you want to go big or go home, do so... but just don't go further than you're certain you can do. Getting to the top is optional - getting to the bottom is mandatory.

I felt like Tecumseh was recommendation in keeping with the OP's goals. My first hike up Tecumseh was from the ski area back when there was no view. My last hike was a couple years ago with GrindBoy up the nice 3 mile trail... and I appreciated the summit more than BrianL because I was there when it really was a friggin waste of time. These days, it only mostly is... but so is Waumbek, Hale, Galehead, and a handful of other boring mountains.

BrianL - I like your Ike/Pierce idea. Pierce was my first winter 4k. When you get to Pierce, you can decide whether or not to do Ike. It can be an easy hike, or a harder one... and you can decide based on how you feel. IMO, that's the best of both worlds - options that exist throughout the hike.

In the spirit of harmony, we should all agree that Tecumseh sucks in winter and summer, unless it's being done as a ridge traverse down to Welch/Dickey.

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Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:43 am
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 Re: Trip suggestions for first winter summit
BrianL wrote:
I did Pierce and Eisenhower on Dec 6th, and I don't think anyone would call the weather "fall".

Dec. 5 and 6 were undeniably mid-Spring-like, minus the crappy trail conditions that usually come that time of year. If you think that was winter conditions you are wrong, end of discussion. Light winds, temps in the upper 30s and well into the 40s on many higher summits, and about 3" of soft snow with a light smattering of ice here and there. But I'm not getting into the rest of this completely pointless arguing. I miss the days when there wasn't all this petty drama on Hike-NH.

OP, you've had some suggestions, most valid, then the thread took a turn off a cliff as theGibba pointed out. Please ignore the pointless arguing that followed and enjoy your hike. Sadly Saturday isn't looking like the greatest day weather-wise, but still not horrible. Cloudy with a slight chance of a minor snow shower. Just means the views won't be great, or possibly not at all from the summit. Choose accordingly, and above all enjoy. Also, keep an eye on the Mount Washington forecast, if you were not already aware of it. By tomorrow evening they will have a forecast for Saturday up, and one that will be more reliable than mountain-forecast.com (which historically I have not found to be particularly accurate). NOAA's point-and-click forecast can be useful further out than 2 days, but really all the forecasts suffer from generally being not worth much more than 48 hours out.

_________________
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My Trip Reports: http://mattshikes.blogspot.com/


Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:58 am
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